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  09:11:04  17 September 2021
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Tejas Stalker
Veteran of the Psychic Wars
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On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 29147
Survival crafting games

I guess I was too old for Minecraft. The graphics were just too crude for me to consider getting into it. The closest thing I had gotten to "crafting" ( no survival involved ) a couple of decades back were the Roller Coaster Tycoon series, where you crafted Amusement Parks on a budget and managed the concessions and customers.

Valheim appears to be an upgrade slightly to the Minecraft landscape but with more RPG elements. Since the Stalker Games came out, the biggest thing that has impressed me and in my opinion is the ultimate crafting survival game has been The Long Dark. It has been a great value for many years as the crafting has gotten more refined and diverse, while new levels have been continually added even to this day. It's my 2nd favorite Game since 2007.

No Dinosaurs, No Zombies, No Cannibals or the usual gimmicks. It's just you and the elements in the Canadian north with some animals, that you can adjust through the difficulty to make them dangerous or they avoid you unless attacked. I highly recommend this Game.

TS
  12:58:14  17 September 2021
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Three Mile Island
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On forum: 11/04/2008
 

Message edited by:
Three Mile Island
09/17/2021 13:01:52
Messages: 3673
Survival crafting games

7 Days to Die reminds me a little of Postal 2, both having great mechanics but simple graphics by today's standards. In addition to exploration and scavenging you spend the week building base defenses to protect yourself from the weekly zombie invasion. The individual zombies don't seem too bright, but if the design of your base is poor they will overrun it.

Being able to craft a completely customized base almost anywhere in the gameworld results in enormous strategic possibilities and gameplay variation, both in terms of logistics and defense.

I've hesitated to include The Long Dark in this thread, not because it doesn't seem like a great game, but since it doesn't feature the defining base building mechanic. Skyrim too let's you gather resources in the gameworld (hunting for pelts, picking flowers, mining ore) and then craft potions, weapons and armors, but you can't craft larger items than that.
  01:21:25  18 September 2021
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Tejas Stalker
Veteran of the Psychic Wars
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On forum: 05/12/2007
 

Message edited by:
Tejas Stalker
09/18/2021 1:27:28
Messages: 29147
Survival crafting games

Yes, I was thinking about what I wrote afterwards, and realized The Long Dark may not fully fit the description or idea of what some people have in mind of being a "crafting" game. Mainly because you are not building structures, buildings or walls.

However you can craft weapons like knives, bows and arrows. You have to skin animals for the guts, the hide and harvest the meat for consumption. From the animal skins you can craft pants, jackets, gloves, shoes and a hat. You can make a snow shelter by collecting pieces of wood and using animals hides. There are many other small features that take time and resources to produce, like crafting or making medicines from things found in nature.

However it's the survival elements that make The Long Dark such a stand out game. Unlike most of the others mentioned, there's no infinite lives or do-overs. There's no restarting things to recover dropped or nearby resources from your prior death. There is only one life and if you die, your game is over and everything is lost. How can there be anything harder? Are any of the others deserving of being called a "survival" game if your survival is as easy as making a few more mouse clicks, and you are right back where you left off?

TS
  20:46:22  18 September 2021
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Lord_Santa
>>opinions will differ>>
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On forum: 07/04/2007
Messages: 2716
well, Minecraft, Unreal World, Dwarf Fortress and Project Zomboid all have perma-death as option

Project Zomboid is (I would say) one of the best, if not the best multiplayer survival/crafting -game; it's got an isometric perspective, but that is alleviated by being able to zoom out a lot

I have been playing it since its first iteration many moons ago and ever since it has grown into something quite extraordinary

it tasks you with surviving in various towns and surrounding landscape, alone against zombies - basically you get to plunder the remaining houses, drive cars, barricade yourself using planks, build yourself a hut, grow a garden, etc. - everything that you could imagine doing during a zombie -apocalypse, trapped inside of a 'town/county', with electricity running out and water running out, etc. there are a plethora of scenarios and options to choose between

it is one of the finest examples of love for details in terms of survival/crafting games, in my opinion

bMinecraft I started playing back when it was in infdev, many moons ago and I have kept playing both single and multi -player for years; it's a neat enough experience, depending on what you want from it, but since I personally prefer 'adventuring', I have always found it sorely lacking, due to simply having little of no point to investigate anything beyond the first few biomes

sure, if you want to build yourself a fancy house using blocks, but there is no purpose to having said house, etc. - of course this has all been expanded greatly upon, both in vanilla and by mods, but in the end Minecraft lacks soul if you ask me
  01:52:27  19 September 2021
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Three Mile Island
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On forum: 11/04/2008
 

Message edited by:
Three Mile Island
09/19/2021 1:56:13
Messages: 3673
Tejas Stalker,

---QUOTATION---
Survival crafting games

Yes, I was thinking about what I wrote afterwards, and realized The Long Dark may not fully fit the description or idea of what some people have in mind of being a "crafting" game. Mainly because you are not building structures, buildings or walls.

---END QUOTATION---


Perhaps the thread should've been called "Base building survival games", since base building part is indeed one of the defining characteristics, just as much as the survival mechanic. Most/all of the games I've listed also share the same "snap-to-fit" mechanic for joining house walls etc, so I suspect they're either borrowing heavily from somewhere. Maybe they're licensing the same software library.


---QUOTATION---
Unlike most of the others mentioned, there's no infinite lives or do-overs. There's no restarting things to recover dropped or nearby resources from your prior death. There is only one life and if you die, your game is over and everything is lost. How can there be anything harder?
---END QUOTATION---


We could rig our PCs to administer an electric shock when losing.

At least Subnautica and ARK do have Hardcore modes (with permadeath, I've read). In practice I play ARK almost as if permadeath was enabled, due to my lingering fear of losing my inventory since the early game. That's also one reason my progress in ARK is so slow.

That said I'm not too fond of the idea of permadeath, since it makes your loss bigger the longer you've played. I imagine I would not want to replay a game if I'd come a very long way in it (say months) and then lost all that progress. It certainly works well in shorter games, like the classic arcade games.

Permadeath also discourages you from taking any risks (such as parkour) or building anything unnecessarily involved. Maybe it will even nudge game developers to make sure players are never killed by random freak incidents (due to say an unpredictable AI, like Stalker's) to avoid the resulting player rage and low game reviews?


---QUOTATION---
Are any of the others deserving of being called a "survival" game if your survival is as easy as making a few more mouse clicks, and you are right back where you left off?
---END QUOTATION---


Isn't Stalker deserving of being called a survival game either then, with its quicksaves, named saves and level changer autosaves?
  01:55:55  19 September 2021
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Three Mile Island
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On forum: 11/04/2008
Messages: 3673
Lord_Santa,

---QUOTATION---
well, Minecraft, Unreal World, Dwarf Fortress and Project Zomboid all have perma-death as option
---END QUOTATION---


Can you actually get killed in Minecraft? I know nothing about the game, always thought it was a mining and building simulator of some sort.
  01:58:13  19 September 2021
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Three Mile Island
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On forum: 11/04/2008
Messages: 3673
Survival crafting games

Icarus
-----------

This game appears to take place on a very Earth-like alien planet featuring violent storms, wildfires and bears. To be released in November 2021 it seems:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1149460/ICARUS/

Icarus explained, with developer Dean Hall | Preview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Losdw9vgQcc

Trailer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w1tEeQ201g
  07:45:03  19 September 2021
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Lord_Santa
>>opinions will differ>>
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/04/2007
Messages: 2716

---QUOTATION---
Lord_Santa,
well, Minecraft, Unreal World, Dwarf Fortress and Project Zomboid all have perma-death as option
Can you actually get killed in Minecraft? I know nothing about the game, always thought it was a mining and building simulator of some sort.
---END QUOTATION---



yeah - there's plenty of things that can kill you in Minecraft; most noticeably 'creepers', I s'pose; annoying creatures that sneak up on you and explode

Minecraft is mostly peaceful during day-time, whilst at night-time there are Zombies, skeletons and other various creatures out to get you; these days they have added plenty more stuff that will chase you during the days, as well (also given a bit more incentive to explore)

Minecraft itself is a based on infiminer, which (to my knowledge) was more about mining and digging, rather than fighting enemies

the enemies of Minecraft are rather dull and don't really have much in terms of an A.I., but they do add a sense of urgency when playing

of course, a lot of people simply play in 'peaceful' mode, or 'constructive', or whatever their called, where they simply have an endless supply of bricks/tools and cannot die

Minecraft has a lot of things going on under the hood and is more complex in nature than other survival/crafting -games, but it's also much more than 'just a game', since it can be used to create... very odd things; I mean it's been at least a decade since I saw the first computer having been built in Minecraft and the things they create these days is just silly, such as

[Minecraft Computer Engineering] - Quad-Core Redstone Computer v5.0 [12k sub special!]
https://youtu.be/SbO0tqH8f5I

Minecraft's popularity is largely depending on its community and although there's been a few ups and downs, it's still standing tall and ever since Microsoft bought [it], they have been further expanding upon the basic concept [of] Minecraft and applying it elsewhere (in educational programs, etc.)

It's a difficult game to expalin, since it very much depends on what you as the player do with it; I personally roam around the world and explore, building little huts and such, while my friends have been creating elaborate systems and structures that I simply have little to no interest in - it is the very definition of a time-sink and I have little to no time for such 'games' these days and once I've tired of the 'game-loop', I usually just quit games such as these, unless they have something more enticing to offer, than simply 'mucking about with systems'
  13:19:40  19 September 2021
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Three Mile Island
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On forum: 11/04/2008
Messages: 3673
Never heard of Infiniminer before. Seems there's always a predecessor to everything... Minecraft does indeed sound like a graphically simple survival crafting game, but with lots of potential for more.

Those Redstone computers seems to be functional all the way down to binary level: https://minecraft.fandom.com/wiki/Tutorials/Redstone_computers --let's hope that guy didn't build it with permadeath enabled (actually I wouldn't be surprised if he did)!
  13:59:23  19 September 2021
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Tejas Stalker
Veteran of the Psychic Wars
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
 

Message edited by:
Tejas Stalker
09/19/2021 14:06:32
Messages: 29147
Survival crafting games

Three Mile Island:

---QUOTATION---

Isn't Stalker deserving of being called a survival game either then, with its quicksaves, named saves and level changer autosaves?

---END QUOTATION---



I had so much trouble with this sentence. I had to re-read it several times despite knowing what you meant by it the first time. I think you meant to say "Isn't Stalker not deserving of being called a survival game either then..."

I wasn't really focusing on the "Survival" element but the "Crafting" part as much. Yes, you can start over in Stalker but it depends on your playing style. For example, you seem to die so much in Ark because you take a lot of unnecessary chances or you're just not playing it like a real "Survival" Game. You play it like an exploration crafting Game where getting killed is just an annoyance you have to deal with.

I play Stalker very seriously and don't take unnecessary chances but every once in awhile, albeit rarely I have been killed. I'm making a lot of Manual Saves in case my Game crashes or gets bugged. However many Stalker Mods like CoC do have a mode where if you get killed, the Game is over. There's also another popular feature like in CoC, where you die but re-spawn so to speak, in the life of one of your Companions.

The Long Dark has 4 modes of Playing. The easiest has wildlife run away from you ( mainly the wolves, moose and bears ) while the 3 harder modes they will attack you. Actually if you attack a bear first in any mode, they will attack if they can get access to you. I started out on the easiest mode because I am more interested in exploration and gathering supplies for survival against the elements. One time I decided I was ready for the next mode. I started out and gathered some good supplies after a week of play. I had spent a day sorting out my supplies, cooking food and making potable water during a blizzard. The next day the storm cleared and I was happy to be able to go outside again. I stepped out the door of the building I had made my base. I took just a few steps out and a wolf came from around the corner, attacked me and I died.

After that I went back to the easier mode. I just didn't have the time to keep doing that and to prove myself wanting to advance to the next mode. As I mentioned, the exploration element was my favorite part. And of course the search for collectible and rare items needed to survive. If I was playing nothing but The Long Dark all the time, for years like I do the Stalker Games, I would have eventually ascended to the more difficult modes. However as it was, I only returned to TLD when I was taking a break between playing and testing new Stalker Mods. When I would return, every other year or so, there were always new levels to explore.

So the question is... are you more interested in survival or crafting?

TS
 
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