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  15:20:36  2 June 2017
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
 

Message edited by:
x5060
06/02/2017 15:25:53
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
Show your stupidity!

Illegal as in a real RPG-7 with a real, live warhead round.

NOT a deactivated RPG-7 with a deactivated warhead round...
NOT a re-activated RPG-7 with a dummy, training warhead round...

I really shouldn't have had to explain the difference...but there you go.

TS
---END QUOTATION---



That is not actually illegal either.

You could purchase, Form4 a real RPG-7, wait for the tax stamp, and import it from the manufacturer (or just transfer it if it was already in the country). You could also do the same with a real RPG-7 round as well, it would be considered a DD (destructive device) and you would have to register and tax stamp each individual round.

Just like I can purchase an M203, and real HEDP rounds, I just have to register each round as a DD, wait for the tax stamp then do the transfer.

The only hard part of this process is actually finding someone who would actually sell you one. The importation may have some extra paperwork and would probably have to go through an SOT.

So you are in fact wrong... Still.

See why I remember you for arguing?


---QUOTATION---
Yep. Not illegal, just expensive.
---END QUOTATION---



Exactly.
  21:43:47  2 June 2017
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
 

Message edited by:
Tejas Stalker
06/02/2017 22:17:42
Messages: 23703
Show your arsenal!

x5060

You've now instigated an argument twice with me in less than 24 hours.
You came here whining about others arguing yet it is you who is the root
cause of having the behavior you accuse others of. I can only imagine that
you came back to this Forum because people were tired of you elsewhere.

Please provide a link to buy a real live RPG-7 round as stated or you're lying.
Please provide a link to the ATF Form that shows anyone can own the same.
Not RPG-2, not M203, not inert, not a rubber dummy, not deactivated. Real.

TS
  23:22:09  2 June 2017
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BobBQ
2007-2017
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/30/2007
Messages: 3336
Here's a dealer who is or was offering some live RPG-7Ds and 7.62x39 sub-caliber training inserts for them, along with a wide variety of other grenade launchers and a few anti-tank guns.

http://www.autoweapons.com/products/destructivedevices.html
http://www.autoweapons.com/photosn/photosfeb04/dd1-48rpg.html

Basic information about buying NFA weapons, including RPGs and the like: https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/pgf6z/how_to_buy_a_machine_gun_suppressor_grenade_and/

National Firearms Act Handbook: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/national-firearms-act-handbook

ATF Form 5320.4, AKA Form 4, Application for Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4-application-tax-paid-transfer-and-registration-firearm-atf-form-53204

Guide to filling out Form 5320.4 (aimed at people buying suppressors, but the form also covers destructive devices): https://johnpierceesq.com/the-complete-guide-to-the-new-form-4/
  09:14:06  3 June 2017
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 23703
Show your arsenal!

BobBQ~

Those are some great links and a valuable resource for everyone here to
read about, understand and potentially initiate the needed requirements
for weapon buying, selling and ownership in the United States. However
none of the links that you provided were the ones I specifically asked for.

You and I both know, beyond all the automatic weapons that use the same
ammunition as their semi-automatic counterparts, that being able to purchase
those is relatively easy despite the Obama Administration buying up enough
ammo to last the DHS for the next 75 years. This made bulk ammo more
scarce and was apparent that if the previous Administration couldn't take
away the guns from people, it would do the next best thing by taking away
all the ammunition on the consumer market. To this date, trying to get
something as simple as 22lr in large bulk quantity without having to pay
a ridiculous inflated price is nearly impossible. We still have the ban on
Russian weapons and ammunition that make the import of those a sad
situation. Luckily many things can still be gotten from the former Warsaw
Pact countries for a Collector such as myself. So glad I bought my Saiga
rifle several years ago before I had any idea of the world events to come.

So specifically as I have said all along, it's not the weapon that is in question
but being able to get the ammo for it. That's the legality part. Anyone can
buy an ancient cannon, a modern artillery piece, a rocket fired instrument
or even a tank or small combat ship...but can you get the ammo for them?
The answer in most cases is no. Unless you live in a Third World country,
you work for a Drug Cartel or have black market connections, you are most
likely out of luck. With that in mind, I never at any point questioned the
ability to buy, sell or own the RPG-7 or the legality of it but simply put, it
is the ordinance that goes with it. That's the part you cannot buy or find
legally. When I say owning an RPG-7 would be illegal, in my mind I'm
talking about a fully functional RPG-7 with Military grade ammunition.
What would be the point of owning such a weapon if it did not include any
ammunition? Clearly I'm not talking about training, simulation, dummy,
rubber, inert or any other classification of ordinance that's not the real thing.

With that in mind, I will comment on each of your links as applicable:

Fascinating resource. Especially of his mention that there are ( as far as
he knows ) less than a dozen RPGs in the NFA registry. However the CZ
Training Rockets using 7.62 x 39 rounds to simulate the firing of an RPG
round is exactly NOT what I mean when I ask for a link to buy a round.
http://www.autoweapons.com/products/destructivedevices.html

Nice pictures but just that. These aren't for sell. Gun Collector's porn:
http://www.autoweapons.com/photosn/photosfeb04/dd1-48rpg.html

Great resource. There are many similar type of information on the internet:
https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/pgf6z/how_to_buy_a_machine_gun_suppressor_grenade_and/

ATF form for Firearms. No mention of ordinance which is what I asked for:
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4-application-tax-paid-transfer-and-registration-firearm-atf-form-53204

You and I both know the ATF is a strained relationship with gun owners.
Too many restrictions. Too many strange rules and guidelines. None of
them are beneficial to gun owners, collectors or anyone needing guidance
other than the wariness and dread dealing with them to avoid prosecution.

For example, I own three weapons the ATF considers Pistols. I do not
but if I attempt to alter or modify them, it could potentially change the
classification and require me to shell out hundreds of dollars in permits,
fees or taxes to remain in compliance. Some of these rules are just crazy.

Example 1: Pistol on top with 100 round drum magazine:
http://i.imgur.com/21ko2Ei.jpg

Example 2: Pistol with a welded folding metal stock:
http://i.imgur.com/SRsXkiQ.jpg

Example 3: Pistol with 75 round drum magazine with no stock:
http://i.imgur.com/iNEhWKb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CxOemqW.jpg

My oldest weapon shooting 7.62 x 39:
http://i.imgur.com/4McoePS.jpg

My rifle that shoots 7.62 x 54:
http://i.imgur.com/NJJW4ZI.jpg

My AK-74 variant:
http://i.imgur.com/aWNrU2y.jpg

My pride and joy:
http://i.imgur.com/DOmWMWZ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/mgqa3b1.jpg

I need to take some pictures of my AMD-65 and Saiga 5.45 with a 20 inch barrel.

TS
  15:53:42  3 June 2017
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J00B
(Senior)
 
On forum: 06/30/2016
 

Message edited by:
J00B
06/03/2017 16:06:40
Messages: 109
Here in Australia, owning a gun is quite restricted although not impossible, better chances of being around guns if you live away from the cities in the rural areas.

My father still has his .22lr from when he grew up, first gun that I shot with. He also possessed an M1 Carbine and a .308, although he sold them in his mid 20's when he moved to Europe.

There's a range about an hours drive away from me, might give it a go sometime.

We certainly don't get any fun weapons (unless you're a professional culler) thanks to this shit brain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoKx29I2_zE
  20:55:41  3 June 2017
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BobBQ
2007-2017
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/30/2007
 

Message edited by:
BobBQ
06/03/2017 21:01:00
Messages: 3336

---QUOTATION---
So specifically as I have said all along, it's not the weapon that is in question but being able to get the ammo for it. That's the legality part. Anyone can buy an ancient cannon, a modern artillery piece, a rocket fired instrument or even a tank or small combat ship...but can you get the ammo for them?
---END QUOTATION---


As far as ATF and federal law are concerned, yes. The hard parts are finding a source and funding the habit.

Live grenades and rocket rounds are individually considered 'destructive devices' by themselves. They require their own tax stamps and paperwork, and have additional storage and handling regulations. For a foreign weapon like the RPG-7, those rounds must either be imported or else custom fabricated. That's a lot of additional overhead even for a hardcore NFA collector.

The number of people who own live RPG launchers in the US is very small. The number who are willing to pay for real anti-tank rockets is probably minuscule, and certainly not enough to make it profitable for dealers to import and stock live ammo.

If you asked on the NFA subreddit, they might be able to tell you how much money and documentation an RPG with ammo would need. I'm guessing it would take some tens of thousands of dollars.

https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/
  16:17:23  5 June 2017
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
 

Message edited by:
x5060
06/05/2017 16:40:41
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
Show your arsenal!

x5060

You've now instigated an argument twice with me in less than 24 hours.
You came here whining about others arguing yet it is you who is the root
cause of having the behavior you accuse others of. I can only imagine that
you came back to this Forum because people were tired of you elsewhere.
---END QUOTATION---



Lol, well those "instigated" arguments were because you were talking out of your ass about shit you don't know. I also like the pathetic insult you have to throw out there. If you're going to make stuff up about things you don't know then expect someone who does know what their talking about to correct you. Grow up kid. You also seem to now have 2 people who know more about the NFA process and regulations than you do.


---QUOTATION---
Please provide a link to buy a real live RPG-7 round as stated or you're lying.
Please provide a link to the ATF Form that shows anyone can own the same.
Not RPG-2, not M203, not inert, not a rubber dummy, not deactivated. Real.
---END QUOTATION---



Talk about moving the goal posts. You said it was entirely illegal, not that they are hard to find. Either way someone already provided you those. As I said, any RPG rounds would need to be imported through an SOT. I never claimed they were just an off the shelf item. You're the one making up stupid caveats on statements I never made.

So again, your previous argument of:


---QUOTATION---
Illegal as in a real RPG-7 with a real, live warhead round.
---END QUOTATION---



is still wrong.


---QUOTATION---
However none of the links that you provided were the ones I specifically asked for.
---END QUOTATION---



Actually he did provide you most of those. He gave you a link to an actual RPG-7 for sale, he also gave you the form from the ATF for the transfer of ownership for it.


---QUOTATION---
Fascinating resource. Especially of his mention that there are ( as far as
he knows ) less than a dozen RPGs in the NFA registry. However the CZ
Training Rockets using 7.62 x 39 rounds to simulate the firing of an RPG
round is exactly NOT what I mean when I ask for a link to buy a round.
---END QUOTATION---



As I said, in my previous post, you would have to import such an item through an SOT. Which means there aren't going to just be a link on the internet to buy such an item. Your narrative of "If I can't find a 'For Sale' page on the internet it can't be bought" doesn't really swing in the NFA community. Not to mention the Post-Samples community who could import this stuff with a Letter.


---QUOTATION---
Nice pictures but just that. These aren't for sell. Gun Collector's porn:
---END QUOTATION---



Actually they are. I love how you don't seem to read anything anyone gives you. Here is a direct quote from that page ABOUT the RPG-7. Don't worry I'll bold the important part for you so you don't have to tax yourself stringing that many words together.


---QUOTATION---
RUSSIAN RPG7d PARA. ----- A SELDOM SEEN LIVE RPG7d ......TAKE DOWN PARATROOPER MODEL. THE FIREARM IS IN CHOICE CONDITION AND COMPLETE.... THE RPG 7 OR 7d LIVE IS ALMOST NEVER OFFERED, COMPLETE AND ORIGINAL -- PURPORTED TO BE FROM LEBANON.... THERE IS ARABIC WRITING ON THE WEAPON WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO TRANSLATE TO "HEADQUARTERS COMPANY 2"....ITEM IS DATE CODED.... COMPLETE WITH RPG BACKPACK AND LEATHER GUN MUZZLE COVER.... THERE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE LESS THEN A DOZEN RPG IN THE NFA REGISTRY --- SINCE NO MORE "SOUVENIRS" CAN BE BROUGHT INTO THE US AS PER PRESIDENTIAL DECREE, THESE ARE LIKELY THE LAST ONES TO BE SEEN. EMAIL FOR PRICE (DD1-48)
---END QUOTATION---




---QUOTATION---
ATF form for Firearms. No mention of ordinance which is what I asked for
---END QUOTATION---



It does if you actually know what you are reading. Again, I am so glad you don't seem to read as it makes you look like an idiot. Here is the specific definition of a firearm you are looking for. Again I'll highlight the important part to spare you the aneurysm.


---QUOTATION---
Firearm. The term “firearm” means: (1) a shotgun having a barrel or
barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (2) a weapon made from a
shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26
inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (3) a rifle
having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (4) a weapon
made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less
than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (5)
any other weapon as defined in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e); (6) a machinegun;
(7) a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is
included within this definition; and (8) a destructive device.
---END QUOTATION---



Here is the definition of Destructive Device because I'm sure you're next incorrect pedantic argument will be about that.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-1

And again the important part because you don't seem to realize that when you read something that ALL the words are important. The very first definition for Destructive Device:


---QUOTATION---
A missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than 1/4 oz.
---END QUOTATION---




---QUOTATION---
For example, I own three weapons the ATF considers Pistols. I do not
but if I attempt to alter or modify them, it could potentially change the
classification and require me to shell out hundreds of dollars in permits,
fees or taxes to remain in compliance. Some of these rules are just crazy.
---END QUOTATION---



I have about 2 dozen tax stamps including DDs, SBRs, and Suppressors. Its a mixture of Form1s and Form4s. I also build firearms from kits and scratch for my own personal use. There is even a thread over a decade old of my building an AK pistol.

This is the only pic I have on hand of about 1/20th of my stuff. Someone asked a question about some of my gear I used while contracting. The spear is what I used to use for hunting hogs at night a few years ago. The PVS-14 really helps with that as well.

http://i.imgur.com/A3zH5IS.jpg

I know you are trying to keep up your "Billy Badass" routine, but you clearly have a huge knowledge gap on this subject. You can keep arguing if you want but really, you should know that it is ok to admit when you don't know something.


ETA:


---QUOTATION---
As far as ATF and federal law are concerned, yes. The hard parts are finding a source and funding the habit.
---END QUOTATION---



Exactly. The hard part isn't the legality, it's finding someone who can and will sell one to you. That does not make them illegal though.


---QUOTATION---
https://www.reddit.com/r/NFA/
---END QUOTATION---



Funny enough I am on that board!
  22:22:24  5 June 2017
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 23703
Show your arsenal!

More arguing from you.

What you shall forever be remembered for...

In addition to not being able to spell and add.

You were the jerk that moved the goal posts.
Just because you misinterpreted my original intent
and failed to comprehend exactly what I was saying.
I specifically asked for the ATF form for the purchase
of an RPG-7 round. Go back and look. Read it clearly.
I specifically mentioned that the link with the simulated
round using 7.62 x 39 was NOT what I meant since that
would hardly be illegal. Still no link to buy the real thing.

Thanks for keeping up your "Billy Dumbass" routine.

TS
  22:59:34  5 June 2017
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x5060
Resident Nobody
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/23/2003
Messages: 2015

---QUOTATION---
Show your arsenal!

More arguing from you.
---END QUOTATION---



If you keep saying stupid stuff I'm just going to have to keep correcting you.


---QUOTATION---
You were the jerk that moved the goal posts.
---END QUOTATION---



Please explain. You stated:


---QUOTATION---
Owning the real thing would be too expensive, very illegal
---END QUOTATION---




---QUOTATION---
Illegal as in a real RPG-7 with a real, live warhead round.
---END QUOTATION---



Of which you have been demonstrated as patently wrong.


---QUOTATION---
Just because you misinterpreted my original intent
and failed to comprehend exactly what I was saying.
---END QUOTATION---



Lol, wut? This explanation I have to hear!


---QUOTATION---
I specifically asked for the ATF form for the purchase
of an RPG-7 round. Go back and look. Read it clearly.
---END QUOTATION---



The Form 4 is the form you fill out to transfer (purchase) a Destructive Device which an RPG-7 round would be considered. Are you trying to imply that there is some specific form out there that is titled "Form to buy an RPG round" or something? How retarded are you?


---QUOTATION---
I specifically mentioned that the link with the simulated
round using 7.62 x 39 was NOT what I meant since that
would hardly be illegal. Still no link to buy the real thing.
---END QUOTATION---



WTF. It's almost as if you aren't reading anything anyone else is writing.
  10:04:00  6 June 2017
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Tejas Stalker
Official Stalker on Facebook
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 05/12/2007
Messages: 23703
Show your arsenal!

More arguing. More stupidity.

Wanting to redefine my intent and meaning for the sole purpose of you
proclaiming your new definition is something you want to argue about.

You came back to the Forum to attempt to impress everyone with your
link of your 2006 pictures of you shooting some ordinary rifle and then
proclaiming it's the unofficial official whatever. Then your next action
is to find the gun thread so you can impress everyone with more gun
stuff by creating multiple arguments and self-serving off subject and
diverting useless trivia so you can proclaim yourself some imaginary
expert. I show a few guns myself ( as I have done over the many
years you were absent ) and suddenly I'm the one showing off. Give
me a break. Oh wait. You showed a spear. A spear. How awesome.
You got me beat. The spear you hunt Calots with on Barsoom when
you are magically transported to the planet when you are out and about.

Admitting someone was wrong is something you can't even do yourself.
You were reminded your signature has a misspelled word and instead of
fixing it like a normal person you proclaim you've been an idiot for 15
years so there's no reason to change now. Now you're a stubborn idiot
that knows he is fully wrong in so many ways but refuses to admit any.

TS
 
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