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Ten thousand times stash:E

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  14:46:17  10 August 2007
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ZaGaR
Skaarj Hybrid - NaPali survivor
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/24/2007
Messages: 647
Ten thousand times stash

Blip-blip!
"Bacpack is near the village" x 1000 times??? - Cordon.
Blip-blip!
"Hidden Backpack" x 1000 times!!!! - Dark Valley.
Blip-blip!
"Pipe with goods" x 10000 times!!???!!! - Army Warehouses.

These are a few of unfortunately too many shashes that show with unbelievable frequence in the game. It borders to lunacy. Talk about immersion reality when you have to carry 50kg of Meat Chunks from "Bandits' Warehouse" stash .
Not only it is boring but, has an enormous impact in the fluidity of the maps. Since each map has 2-3 of the kind, it starts stuttering terribly.

It seems that the conditions set for the stash hit, lack the control of occourrence in time and in numbers.

I tried to look up something for this in this forum but, my searches didn't result succesful. If there is a thread/topic dealing with this problem, please notify.
  21:42:52  10 August 2007
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NatVac
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/15/2007
Messages: 4189
There are at least two ways to deal with this problem while waiting for patch update that might not fix it anyway.

A guy from the Russian forum called bardak has a "mod" called "Patch 1.0003 bug fix attempt" which includes a fix for this. See the Mods Downloads section.

Also, I've produced a hack to deal with this without affecting game saves. See this topic in the Mod Discussion section:

"Treasure Manager Hack to Reduce Stash Spam"
[link]http://www.gsc-game.com/main.php?t=community&s=forums&s_game_type=xr&thm_id=10222&sec_id=16[/link]

A download link for the hack is on the second page of the thread, along with a pretty good explanation for what is going on.
  14:42:54  13 August 2007
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ZaGaR
Skaarj Hybrid - NaPali survivor
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/24/2007
 

Message edited by:
ZaGaR
08/13/2007 14:57:47
Messages: 647
I am not worried about Save/Reload occourence but the ABSOLUTE re-occourence, so to speak.

I get the stash from a two bandits in a row at Cordon and then travel to Garbage get it 5 times again in less than 15 minutes. After an hour I'm in Dark Valley and the same thing repeats so, when I'm back in Cordon, the stash needs a truck to empty it. I think this gives you an idea of what I mean.

It creates some stupid situations. I can be near the end of a game, just turning off the Scorcher for example, and "Bandits' Warehouse" pops up from the soldiers there. WTF, I'm at the doors of Pripyat, do I need a Meat Chunk in Cordon???????

The limitation should have been based on the clearing of the stash and time. If I don't clear it, no new hits for that stash, or, no new hits for it until a timer expires.

I followed that other thread and, I understand now that the first part of what I'm saying is already working. Great job!.
You can leave stashes uncleared, not ot have those again with the drawback tha a map may get "heavy" if it has a lot of markers on.
  12:59:58  20 August 2007
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ZaGaR
Skaarj Hybrid - NaPali survivor
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/24/2007
Messages: 647
I am close to the completion of a game started with the hacked TM NatVac.
Even with the changed script, THERE IS RECURRENCE of empty stashes. Most of the time happens when, right after the stash hit, I leave the map. On return, stashes flagged at the last moments before my departure, result regularily empty.
There are also other occasions with empty marked stashes but I'm not sure of the mechanism behind that.

I used the file you posted at the other topic. Maybe it is old version or needs more changes.
  16:37:27  20 August 2007
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NatVac
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/15/2007
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Hah! First you were complaining about too-full stashes, and now you are complaining about empty stashes. There's no way to make you happy, is there, ZaGaR?

Actually, I don't think it's a Treasure Manager problem, based on repeated testing. The stash contents are supposedly created by the game engine before the marker is given in my version.

Yes, the empty-but-marked stashes occur after you reload a saved game -- and this includes leaving and re-entering a level. If you get a nearby secret, save the game, then check the secret, it's there. Reload the saved game or leave the level/come back, and it's not there.

As mentioned in the Treasure Manager Hack thread, the proof example I use is "The pile" secret in Agroprom at the southwest corner of the northern compound where you save Mole. You get the secret when you search a soldier. At this point, the treasure_manager is out of the picture. It's already done the job of telling the game engine to create stuff for the stash.

Here's an oversimplification of one of my current theories:

It may have something to do with the switch distance, default 150 meters in radius around the player.

Anything outside of that switch distance is not really in the game. Just like the grass textures improving in quality ahead of you as you move forward, the actual items exist only as names on a list outside of that sphere wth a 150-meter radius. They are actually created when they come within range, and they are destroyed when they go out of range as you move, reduced once again to names on a list.

(Side note: This is the real cause of most of the small pauses: the dynamic allocation and initialization of small chunks of memory for objects in the game. It does this for every bullet in a stash. )

As modders who have used alife():create() can tell you, stuff they create is not immediately available for use. It's as if the game has a deferred creation mechanism; the clock has to tick before it becomes real.

So all the secrets are not real when created. They become real when you "switch them on" by coming within 150 meters of them. The game then allocates the object structures and initializes their attributes.

The problem with secrets that are created within this range is that they are never "switched on". They remain just references until you actually transfer them from a stash, as if converting the item on the restaurant menu into the actual food.

If you save the game, only the real objects are converted into references and saved. Any unrealized local secret is lost.

So if you want the contents of a local secret you just received, you have to go make the contents real...

Another theory is that the objects are created at specific coordinates, but they are reloaded from a saved game in a slightly different position, and if they intersect with the container, they drop out of the map, so to speak, like those corpses and crates that disappear when they hit the floor. They are no longer in the crate, backpack, or box.

Both of these ideas lend themselves to the possibililty of hacking to somehow make the secrets valid despite the game engine. We'll see...
  14:28:22  21 August 2007
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ZaGaR
Skaarj Hybrid - NaPali survivor
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/24/2007
Messages: 647
Thanks a lot NatVac!

I had a hunch that it was something related to the game logic/engine. The way it happens is typical. Now it remains to beat the game by its own rules . We must find the strategy that activates and preserves the stashes without getting us killed in the process .

The hacked TM works perfectly. Some hits seem very, very hard to get although the map maybe lit as a Christmas tree with the rest of the stashes flagged.

Probably it is the probability weight calc that you explained at the other thread.
  07:19:13  22 August 2007
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NatVac
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/15/2007
Messages: 4189
I'm glad to hear it's working for you, ZaGaR. I'll continue to work on trying to fix this empty-stash game bug.

---QUOTATION---
Some hits seem very, very hard to get although the map maybe lit as a Christmas tree with the rest of the stashes flagged.

Probably it is the probability weight calc that you explained at the other thread.
---END QUOTATION---


The probability weight is part of it. But the conditions make some stashes very unlikely.

As mentioned in the other thread, the "Fang's goodies" Pripyat grave secret can only be obtained in the vanilla game by searching stalker bodies (not zombies or any others, just stalkers) while you are in Yantar. There aren't many stalker bodies in Yantar unless you go around killing neutrals. Then the one-in-three chance of getting a secret kicks in, and after that, any earlier valid-but-ungiven secrets will probably be checked first.

It's as if you are playing a new Lotto game every time you search a body. If you are in Yantar, and if you are searching the body of a stalker, then five balls marked with the "Fang's goodies" (it has a probability weight of five) are put in the bucket. Then there's that one-chance-in-three that you get to draw a ball-with-secret from the bucket.

But guess what? There are still fifty other balls with different secrets in that bucket, even when most of the map is filled with purple markers.

Yes, some secrets are extremely hard to get.
  15:32:58  27 August 2007
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ZaGaR
Skaarj Hybrid - NaPali survivor
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/24/2007
Messages: 647

---QUOTATION---

The probability weight is part of it. But the conditions make some stashes very unlikely.
.......

Yes, some secrets are extremely hard to get.
---END QUOTATION---



Fang's Goodies is not that rare NatVac.
What is impossible to get is Lucky's Stash in Wild Territory. The devs have set such conditions ( master stalkers in WT) that make me think of a joke or some kind of easter egg.

What about 1.0004 and persistence? I havent been able to locate any info in the fixed tings list. Is it fixed or we need to use the hack with it?
  20:45:53  27 August 2007
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NatVac
Senior Resident
 

 
On forum: 06/15/2007
Messages: 4189
Actually, I got "Secret stash of the Lucky One" in Wild Territory before I ever got "Fang's goodies". I remember getting it because I searched the body of a stalker who had been killed by a dog or pseudodog, after returning from cleaning out the stadium in Pripyat and doing some additional quests.

Yes, expert level, and only on a stalker. But it is high odds, if you don't have a lot of other secrets in the lotto bowl.

It looks like they fixed the persistence in 1.0004. I've since released two updates:

Version 1.1 for 1.0004 to recognize the secrets you already got in 1.0003 save games

Version 1.2 which adds a decent workaround for the empty-stash problem. From what I determined from testing, the switch distance was the critical factor (the first theory mentioned above).

So, yes, I'd say you would benefit from using the 1.2 version of the Treasure Manager hack.
  13:46:19  28 August 2007
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ZaGaR
Skaarj Hybrid - NaPali survivor
(Resident)

 

 
On forum: 07/24/2007
 

Message edited by:
ZaGaR
08/28/2007 14:10:57
Messages: 647

---QUOTATION---

Yes, expert level, and only on a stalker. But it is high odds, if you don't have a lot of other secrets in the lotto bowl.

---END QUOTATION---



Never seen Master Loners in WT, in the early stages of the game, that is the problem. That particular stash, would have been handy to have BEFORE Yantar or, at least Red Fores /Scorcher. After Prypiat it is more question of "a collectionists pride" than of utility.



---QUOTATION---

So, yes, I'd say you would benefit from using the 1.2 version of the Treasure Manager hack.
---END QUOTATION---



Thanks again NatVac for keeping it up.
The link at the other thread has, what it looks like v1.2. Is it also 1.1 or you have posted it somewhere else (maybe I can't tell which is which )?
From what I understand, 1.2 gets you more secure hits but, with a bit of limitation compared 1.1. I may try both and see who fits my game style better. In the end of the day, it is a question of luck .
 
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